Author Topic: Spoke tension, according to Brandt  (Read 555 times)

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trikebldr

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Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« on: July 24, 2010, 10:33:53 AM »
I will be quoting a few statements from Jobst Brandt on page 71 in his book. David, take these quotes over to the Cat forum so others won't use Elso's crap advice!

"With tensioned wires as spokes, the wheel can support loads only to the point where it's spokes become loose. At this point the wheel will collapse. Therefore, for greatest strength, spokes must be as tight as the rim permits."

"In practice, however, spokes should be slightly looser than the maximum the rim can sustain, because at maximum tension, failure of a single spoke can severely deform the rim."

"It has often been suggested that looser spoking will improve the cushioning of a wheel, for instance one used on rough roads. Because the elasticity of spokes arises from the material properties of steel and is not affected by more or less tension, no change in ride quality can be achieved by loose spoking. Spoking with less than optimal tension only forfeits strength and durability."


I think that the last sentence in the last quote is the most important to remember as a rule of thumb.

Unfortunately, leaving it up to your lbs to take care of your wheels is a real crap-shoot! (actually, leaving ANY aspect of the care of your ride up to a lbs is a crap-shoot in most cases!) Very few shop mechanics have ever had any schooling in wheel maintenance or building, and it takes patience and a certain touch to get it right. Not everybody can do it.

One last little tid-bit that Jobst barely touches on is how badly a wheel will warp when just one spoke breaks. When Rafael's rear wheel broke a spoke last year, he knew it, because the rear end suddenly started wobbling enough to feel it. Before I tried to true it, it was a bit over 1/2" of-center near the broken spoke. It took a lot of work to get it back into true with one missing spoke, but we had no choice for the next day's ride. I got it true with one missing spoke, and picked up several new spokes the next day. I dismantled the whole wheel that night and put it all back together, spreading all of the new spokes evenly through the wheel just in case they had different properties than the rest. It trued up very nicely then, and is still rolling as I write this!

If a spoke breaks, simply sticking a new in place and tightening it won't fix the problem. Spokes around the broken one will pull the rim out of true beyond what a new spoke can restore. Surrounding spokes must be loosened and the whole area must be trued. Actually, it is best to loosen the whole wheel and start over with truing. Doing just the affected area can take longer, and certainly be much more frustrating, than starting over.
Bruce

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devious56

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2010, 04:15:46 PM »
Consider it done.......................

David
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"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird.
As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle."

trplay

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2010, 05:06:17 PM »
TRkbldr, did you miss my msg or just get bored with the whole thing?   

trikebldr

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2010, 11:17:47 PM »
? msg?
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

devious56

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 06:23:57 AM »
It seems like Elso didn't like what I said over on Catrike, so I guess he will be less happy with my latest post.  I wonder if I will hear from Mark on this?

David
Catrike Speed (CT-1020)
Specialized Tarmac Pro
Motobecane Le Champion Team

"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird.
As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle."

trplay

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 07:00:04 AM »
Yep, it must have gotten lost in the cyber-sphere.  I dont want to hyjack this thread, I'll try to send another PM.

trikebldr

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 09:56:31 AM »
David, no I don't think Mark will say anything because I thought you were very cool and collected about how you spoke to E.

I'm still feeling the depression of yesterday's news, so I won't take the time to tear Elso's posts apart completely here like I'd like to. BUT, here is a quote that merits him being commited:  (from his very first post in that Catboard thread)

"Regardless of the sideways torque on our trike wheels, the spokes in our little wheels seem to have it pretty easy, and just don't seem to need the same tension as road bike spokes do. "

That is just the most ignorant, false statement I have ever read from him! I think the first word says it all! I think Elso is being very defiant right now, like he used to be. He thinks that if it works for him, then it's the best thing for the rest of the world!

I would like to see what would happen to Elso's wheels if he tried to "bicycle" his trike! Come on Elso, try it!

« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 04:15:06 PM by trikebldr »
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

TrikerTom

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 02:46:49 PM »
I wasn't going to get into it but simply couldn't help myself.  Oh well.  Maybe we set a few people straight enough to avoid E's recommendations.  its all we can do.

Drum tight, huh :)  Let's see...  yep, that's exactly what we are doing.  Hence the "pluck-tones"! :)  And dums are nowhere near as tight as their limit.  I just didn't have the heart to call E in this one.

Oldfrt

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 07:45:15 PM »
If you want to know what will happen to a 20" wheel with loose spokes then talk to just about any TT owner who got the stock machine built wheels.  Yea the wheel will stay usable with loose spokes and even a couple of broken ones to.  The spokes will break at the hub from the rubbing at the hub and I never heard any ticking from the couple of wheels where I did have several broken spokes (one after another), I did manage the make it back to where I was parked.  I now ride a set of hand built wheels that are tensioned properly and keep the cheap machine built wheels as spares.

By the way I believe there was some flaming about the quality of the wheels (loose spokes) on the Whiz Wheels forum on Yahoo a couple of years.  The loose spokes wheels will last about 3000 miles before they start breaking, that is with relatively low pressure tires (40 to 60 psi).  I already did the experiment and didn't even know it.

Dennis

trikebldr

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 10:16:20 PM »
Here's just a bit more info supporting the higher tension spoke concept, explaining why loose spokes will break. Of course, Elso won't accept any of this, because it doesn't meet his very specific form of proof that he demands, I.E. specific examples.

The following quote is from Park Tool's website about their TM-1 tension meter. The quote is just the part I wanted to highlight that addresses the issue dirrectly, and the rest of the page is available using the link that follows.

"Wheels that are strong, reliable and long-lasting have spokes that are properly tensioned. Tension is the amount of force pulling on a wheel's spokes. Spokes that have low tension will continue to loosen as the bike is ridden, resulting in shortened spoke life and a wheel that requires continuous re-truing. As the wheel rotates while in use, the spokes that are on the bottom next to the ground actually lose tension momentarily. This loosening each revolution is a "stress cycle", and low tension wheels actually see a greater stress cycle than wheel with relatively greater tension. A high stress cycle fatigues the metal and leads to spoke breakage. "


http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=tm_1

I will post more as I find it on the web.

Suggestion: ask Elso if he would accept Park Tool's philosophy on loose spokes, then wait for his answer. If he says yes, then hit him with the above quote. But, we all know he won't, and he is just being the stubborn ass he always has been and always will be.

He keeps asking the same question: "PLEASE, where is the evidence to support your bias? That's all I'm asking for." The evidence is found in the words of wisdom of the 'elders" who HAVE experienced the problems and found and applied the answers. We don't have to all experience the same thing to learn. Don't keep re-inventing the wheel! Just learn from our forefathers of wheeldom.
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

devious56

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 06:33:26 AM »
 ;D

I've had my say over there, and am finished.  Elso can keep spouting all he wants, and his fans can go out and loosen their spokes if they would like.  I've said more than I wanted, he seems to draw out the worst in me.

David
Catrike Speed (CT-1020)
Specialized Tarmac Pro
Motobecane Le Champion Team

"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird.
As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle."

Wraith Rider

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 04:04:00 PM »
Me. too.  I'm not going to utter another word.  And, yes, he can bring out the worst in me, too, especially something as idiotic as deliberately running loose, ticking spokes and being proud of it.
Dennis T (aka Trsnrtr)

09 700, 06 Fujin SL-II, 07 Velokraft VK2 and another 4 or so...

Dr Duk

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 04:44:52 PM »
IMHO I have to believe this is deliberate. Elso reminds me a of a lonely old man with only two things he loves and loved. His Father(who died a few years ago) and his "04" Road with the powder coating rubbed off from his petting. He knows that he will raise the ire of the "educated" ones on the forums when he makes outlandish statements. It is his way of having people to talk with but I still think he is a pompous ass.  :P 
Dr Duk
Carpe Diem

Catrike 700     - CT7269  (08)   (Lucille)
Catrike Speed  - CS870   (08)   (Hi-Yo Silver II)
Catrike Speed  - CS299   (04)   (Hi-Yo Silver)
Catrike Trail     - CTT642 (09)   (Miss Dona)

TrikerTom

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 09:15:11 PM »
Duk... tell us how you -really- feel.  no-no-no-don't hold back  ;D

Dr Duk

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Re: Spoke tension, according to Brandt
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2010, 01:49:11 PM »
Well, El SoArse has gone from "Oh everyone is picking on me" to saying that the Hipster has called him a name and asking for moderation from the Forum. I was wondering how long it would take for him to use the "name calling and their picking on me because I am ignorant" card. I just love the way he changes course in mid-stream and than tries to blame everyone else for being inconsiderate. What a class act, NOT. Here is a kiss for you Elso!  :-* My Arse!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 01:51:02 PM by Dr Duk »
Dr Duk
Carpe Diem

Catrike 700     - CT7269  (08)   (Lucille)
Catrike Speed  - CS870   (08)   (Hi-Yo Silver II)
Catrike Speed  - CS299   (04)   (Hi-Yo Silver)
Catrike Trail     - CTT642 (09)   (Miss Dona)