Author Topic: Catbike review  (Read 315 times)

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trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2010, 07:18:46 PM »

TWELVE INCHES????!!!!????!!!!!???? Are you kidding?  Sounds like a bottom bracket shell welded dirrectly to the end of the frame tube would have worked. I didn't know you were a midget!

Well at least I'm not worried about boom flex  like those long legged riders :P

If one were to go with long anchored tubes what kind of real world friction increase would you see?  You could use the idler bolt and black tube holder thingy attachment points to attach struts for keeping both tubes off the wheels.

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2010, 10:56:40 PM »
In most cases, including your's here, the purpose of the tubes is to keep the chain away from SOMETHING, be it the skin on your legs, your pants, a frame member or the ground. In this case, the tubes will help keep the chain from swaying and flopping so much due to the tube's stiffness compared to the chain. It will also keep all the little chain pin-ends from ripping at the powdercoat on the forks. I think it is a very satisfactory compromise to do this if a multi-idler arrangement isn't to your liking.

Using PEX tubing will add no measureable friction if the tubes are straight and properly flared on the ends. If you buy some of that bulk stuff from Lowe's that is all coiled up, it won't work. They also sell the 5' and 10' lengths that are straight.

To anchor them, I prefer using old spokes. The longer the better. I make a small loop on one end of the spoke to hook under the idler axle bolt for just one tube, or I make a small plate with two little 8-32 bolts to hold the spoke for two tubes if a double idler is used. That little plate goes under the idler bolt head. The drawing below shows that little plate, but has only the power chain tube hooked to it for illustrationof how the spoke is used. The return side tube is run through an Adell clamp like Catrike uses, and there isn't a return idler in this case.

This spoke method allows the chain to find it's own path and alignment with the idler, but keeps it from moving in the dirrection of the chain. The longer the spoke, the better, because if the spoke attaches to the tube close to the idler, the tube can't move as freely to align with the idler.  A simple piece of string will work for the power side chain, too, as long as you don't backpedal! A simple bend here and there will make the spoke hold the tube in approximate aligment and the chain will do the rest.

Since we are talking about chainlines and tubes, I would just like to throw a bit of debate in here. Everybody who has seen the chain routing where the return chain runs through a tube that runs over the seat tube thinks that this reduces the friction on the chain by giving it a straight line. WRONG! It actually creates more friction! Why? Because the return chain has a natural curve to it as it hangs under the trike on it's way back to the der cage. The best possible tube arrangement would be to run it through a tube that has such a perfect curve to it that it didn't touch the chain. Not likely, but a tube that has a little bit of curve to it, like most of our's do, is closer to the ideal condition than forcing the chain to run a straight line. In a straight line, every bit of that chain's full weight is resting on the bottom of the tube. In a curved tube, very litte of it's weight is being carried by the tube. Now, you tell me, which one will create the most friction?

A second argument against running the straight tube system is that to run the tube that way, the return chain has to be pushed just a bit farther to the side to get it to clear where it crosses the power side chain TWICE! This also causes a bit more drag in the chainline.

This is also why I like using the spoke method to guide the chain, so that the chain finds it's own path and doesn't rely on the tube to hold it's full weight. Certainly, the weght of the tube on the chain will not create any appreciable friction. 

And, as always, you are entitled to my opinion!
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
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Tennbent

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2010, 02:21:11 PM »
Bruce wanted me to post pictures of my Baron chainline for comparison purposes, so here they are.
Sorry about the spot on the lens.  I didn't know that was there until after I had taken the pictures.


Stephen
Murfreesboro, TN
Catrike 700, Optima Baron

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2010, 02:56:01 PM »
Thanks for those pics! I have archived them for future references. And, I really like that chainline! It appears that the power side is just high enough to clear the tire as you turn a little bit sharp. Am I right? It's sure better than the Mooshies!
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

Tennbent

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2010, 03:43:20 PM »
Bruce,

The bike turns very well with no interference at all.  That is why I am running the stock chainline with the TerraCycle setup.  I tried "dropping" the return side as others have done for efficiency but the thing won't make a good turn worth a lick.  Whoever said that road riding requires no sharp turns must ride in some Utopia somewhere.  They obviously don't live here.

Minor rant coming up.  For full disclosure, I will state that I have done what most Baron owners do which is replace the stock fiberglass seat with a Velokraft carbon fiber seat.  Therefore, I am technically running a non-stock seat setup.

My only gripe with this chainline setup is that the power side idler is tucked up underneath the carbon seat with very little clearance.  The chain keeper on the power idler is not on the inside of the bolt.  It is one of those that clamps on the outside of the bolt head.  Because of this, there is really only one way I can orient it without it hitting the chain or the seat rib.  The clearance on it is so tight that I am sure the seat rests against it with my weight on it.  The system is not quiet and the seat actually amplifies the noise coming out from under there.  It's a constant mechanical whirring sound that never quits.  It sucks because it makes it hard to sneak up on someone unless you are flat out flying.  I plan to continue the quest to make it as quiet as possible but I don't think it will ever be as quiet as other bikes, including my 700.  This is not a slam against the Baron or TerraCycle, it is just one of those recumbent chainline problems that has to be dealt with.  The bike is really fast and has been a joy to ride.
Stephen
Murfreesboro, TN
Catrike 700, Optima Baron

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2010, 05:10:36 PM »
I would love to get my hands on your Baron, too! Without benefit of seeing the details up close and in person, I think I see a similar solution to your noisy chainline that I see for the short wheelbase Mooshie. Basically, if you move that idler from way back under the seat to right next to the existing lower idler, then move both of them up just an inch or so, then add a double idler up front and run both chains over it, I think you can get rid of some of that noise coming from the two places where the chains cross each other. ANYTHING can be done! Just might require some custom parts need to be made.

Where do you live? Wanna come to the Kansas City area for a visit and do some riding, as well as tinkering with chainlines?
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

Tennbent

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2010, 07:04:26 PM »
Bruce,

I live about 30-35 miles SE of Nashville and your offer is very tempting, indeed.  Your proposed solution makes sense.  I had actually thought about putting a dual idler under the front but I couldn't figure out what to do with the upper part.  You would definitely have to see the bike in person to make any final determinations.  I checked Mapquest and it is about 9.5 hours to KC from here.  Not too bad.  I'll have to chew on this a bit more.  I am currently unemployed so I have the time to do it but funds are somewhat limited.  I drive a 2008 Honda Civic, so gas isn't a problem.  I can also eat cheaply.  It is a hotel that kills me.  Out of curiosity, what are the chances of being able to crash at your place?
Stephen
Murfreesboro, TN
Catrike 700, Optima Baron

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »
In about a week from now the chances are better than excellent of staying here! Our daughter is here with her baby from England right now until next Tuesday. We can feed you, too! If you can afford the gas, then let's do this! Your's may be the first Baron to have a quiet chainline!
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2010, 07:50:04 PM »
Yep, and when he's done practicing with yours its my turn.  Tennbent are you going to do the  Natchez Trace Brevet.  I have signed up but have yet to get confirmation.

Tennbent

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2010, 08:12:20 PM »
Bruce,

We'll have to work out the "when" but yes, let's do this.  Just let me know when things would work best for you.  The sooner, the better, for me.

Trplay,

No, I am not doing the brevet.  I didn't even know there was one.  I have never done a brevet before.  I did ride the Trace from Natchez to Nashville in 2008.  I had just received my Baron and had barely made it roadworthy in time for the trip.  A friend and I did 468 miles in 4.5 days during the last week in July.  Extremely hot with temps over 100.  I would like to ride the Trace again but during a cooler time of year and on the 700.
Stephen
Murfreesboro, TN
Catrike 700, Optima Baron