Author Topic: Catbike review  (Read 314 times)

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trplay

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Catbike review
« on: July 08, 2010, 09:46:14 AM »
I like my short frame Musashi.  You can read the review by clicking the url http://trplay.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/cat-bike-review/  Comments on the word press site will  also appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 09:48:12 AM by trplay »

devious56

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 10:16:10 AM »
Now THAT is a great review, thanks very much for your time and trouble.  That should really help some of us along the path of trying to decide if it is for us.  If I could offer a suggestion, have you thought about mounting an idler pully to get rid of your chain slapping your frame where you now have the small chain tube?  That might be the simplist solution, I'm sure Bruce will have ideas on this subject.

Thanks again,
David
Catrike Speed (CT-1020)
Specialized Tarmac Pro
Motobecane Le Champion Team

"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird.
As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle."

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2010, 10:45:17 AM »
Yes, I think I do have a solution to the chain routing, but I need a good, large picture of the bike looking at it's right side profile to be sure everything will work together.

Hardy, if you lift the power side chain so it runs as if it would go just under that front pulley, does it still clear the top of the front der? If I had a good right profile pic of this bike I could print out several copies and do some routing sketches to see how well everything fits. Part of my solution requires a frame clamp to relocate that front idler down just a bit, while adding a second one next to it for the power side. It would eliminate that chain slap under the seat tube, at least!

Your report confirmed to me that a 406, or better yet, a 349 front wheel would have been better than the 451 for heel strike issues. Maybe a new, longer fork would accomodate such a swap.

I think you and oldfrt have given us some great reviews that will help others decide on the bike. Thank you guys!
Bruce

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trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2010, 03:51:48 PM »
OK, using the pics from another thread I think I can explan what I think needs to be done. In the first pic below, at point "A" we have the chains crossing each other close enough that they will touch quite a bit of the time. This needs to be eliminated. And, as trplay reported, the chain touches at "C". This also needs to be eliminated.

I am using the standard version Musashi to illustrate what I want because the pic has the white frame. Both versions will benefit from the mod that I suggest. If you will notice, one of the differences in the two versions is that the front idler is farther forward on the short version. This aggravates the cross-over problem, bringing the chains even closer together at point "C".

Looking at the third pic you will see a small area of the headtube just below the frame and above the headset bearing cup. This can be used to locate the clamp to relcate the idler, just like the Terracycle frame clamps. Using a clamp in this location will do two things at once. First, it will lower the return chain so it won't hit the seat frame tube anymore. Second, it will raise the power chain so there is no more cross-over of the two chains. The second pic shows the resultant chain routing in black Sharpie lines.

It all sounds so simple, doesn't it? Well, it's not. Raising the power chain changes the angle of that chain to the der post. That angle is somewhat critical to correct function of the der. Even if the chain stays within the der's cage area, it will still be misaligned with the contours of the cage's side plates, and those contours are what make it shift smoothly and correctly.

What I don't know without getting my hands on one to play with is just how much will that misalignment affect the shifting, and can it be adjusted to compensate? Of course, if I had one of my own, I would make the changes, then cut and reweld the der post to re-establish the correct angle. problem solved.

Question for oldfrt and trplay; is the Mush's boom built like the trike booms, with the index-slotted tube and the same diameter? If so, I believe that a trike boom might give us the correct angle we need (or close enough) to make this mod work.

Oldfrt, if you are game to try this mod, I will use my spare boom and make the idler clamp and use my Terracycle idlers to do this if you will provide the bike. if you like it and want to keep it that way, I will only charge you for the materials. Game? BTW, that third pic is of your bike!

Also, in the third pic I drew a circle where the idler will be moved to, with lines showing where the chain will run. In this lower position, the chain will not hit the seat tube anymore.

I'm sure there are those who will say, "But you are adding one more idler that will crate more drag on the chain". Yes, technically it will, but just how much? Do you think you could feel the difference? Also, using the larger Terracycle idlers to replace that small front idler will help eliminate a tiny bit of drag. Don't forget that I once used FIVE idlers on my trikes to do what I wanted to accomplish, and I never felt any difference in the amount of drag. Four of them were Tarracycle's titanium power idlers with ceramic bearings in them.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 04:14:46 PM by trikebldr »
Bruce

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trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 09:09:45 AM »
Try this hyperlink.  If it works I can do a bit better if need be.   Notice how the tube cord wacks the fork and tire. 

musashi chain line

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 10:54:42 AM »
The vid works fine. That problem of hitting the fork and tire is exactly why I would want to raise the power side.

I looked at the short frame version a little closer last night (bad angle on the pic, though!), and it will require a different solution than the standard frame bike. I think I have a solution for that one, too. I am going to work on it this weekend, but I still REALLY need a profile pic of the bike taken with the camera about 24" from the ground.
Bruce

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Oldfrt

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2010, 09:05:42 PM »
I took the musashi out today and I have plenty of clearance between the seat frame and the chain.  I think the problem with the short frame model is that the frame is shorter and requires a steeper angle to get the chain where it needs to be for the derailer.  Another solution to the short frame chain problem would be a bracket to lower the two bottom idlers to get the additonal clearance from the seat without disrupting the entry angle to the front chainrings.  The boom is supposed to be the same as the current trike booms with the index tab.

I don't plan on doing anything to my bike for quite a while, I am just trying to become adapted to the seating and low speed control, the bike is rock solid at cruising speed.  The death grip is almost completly gone after about 500 miles on the bike.

Dennis

trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 09:30:16 PM »
Looking at photos the idler is in the same place, same angle for both models.  The chain slap comes from the idler to dual idlers.  I would think the greater distance the front idler to chain ring is would increase the chance of slap making the standard boom even more vulnerable.  I only have this issue when on chip seal.  Its not a show stopper but I bet there is a better mouse trap.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 09:42:52 PM by trplay »

trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 09:59:25 PM »
Dennis, the booms may be made of the same materials as the trike booms, but their der posts are definitely not welded at the same angle. They are more layed back than on the trikes to accomodate the power chain's steeper angle downward than on a trike. My idea was that if the power chain were lifted a bit higher to eliminate the crossover and clear the front wheel better, the der post should be lifted also, which would put it back almost like a trike's.

Oh, well, I guess I will just have to save my pennies (litterally!) and buy a Mushie frameset and build my own Super-Mushie! Cleaner chainline, triple front end, and a 349 front wheel with longer forks to maintain the frame angle. Oh, and disc brakes, too!
Bruce

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trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »
Its official;  For me anyway.  The Musashi is suitable for hill climbing in the stock gearing.  Today I took her successfully through my hill climbing training run and she broke the record.  Interestingly enough the trikes still smoke her on the downhills.  Perhaps its the weight?  On the grades where my trikes travel 2mph the Moose did 5 mph and the ratio stays pretty much the same throughout the rest of the grades.

trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 01:44:28 PM »
? for Trikebldr.   This dad gum chain line really has become annoying.  Not such that I am ready for a mass redesign (but I'm getting close).  The question is could you simply add one of those chain tension type idlers (as in the photo) to drop the chain?  What would be the cons to this?


trikebldr

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 02:18:18 PM »
You haven't stated just what you are trying to accomplish or how you intend to do it. What exactly is it about your chainline that bugs you?

I will comment on the pictured bike, though.

That bike in the pic has a terrible idler arrangement, IF it were on the power side. That wouldn't work very well on the power side.

When you make the chain deflect from it's natural line, you add drag, but when you make it deflect as much as that shows, it's bad. We already have to deal with that enough through our rear der cages. The only saving grace is that it is on the return, or slack side, without a lot of tension multiplying the problem.

On that yellow bike I just don't see the need for that smaller idler under the bigger one. But, if it is needed, then it should be placed farther back on a clamp-on mount to eliminate that radical zig-zag of the chain. I assume that the small idler is on a spring-loaded arm to act as a tensioner? Why? Doesn't the der's cage have enough chain-wrap to do the job? Take a look at my Roadster's chainline. It works perfect!

The point is to get both chains to run over the front wheel/fork at a point just even with the headtube. A double idler does this quite well.

The solution for the Mushie's chainline is easy on the standard frame, but your's is a bit different. It's still easy, but I just haven't taken any time to wrk out the details. I will be gone the rest of this afternoon, but will look at it this evening. Just try to give me a better idea of what your complaint is and what you would like to do. I know what I would do!
Bruce

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Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
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John Rooker

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 03:24:31 PM »

On that yellow bike I just don't see the need for that smaller idler under the bigger one. But, if it is needed, then it should be placed farther back on a clamp-on mount to eliminate that radical zig-zag of the chain. I assume that the small idler is on a spring-loaded arm to act as a tensioner? Why? Doesn't the der's cage have enough chain-wrap to do the job? Take a look at my Roadster's chainline. It works perfect!




In the photo he posted, that lower idler is under spring tension.  That's the Lightning chain tensioner that comes on the Phantom.  If someone wants one of those, I have it in a bag on my bench.  I removed it from my bike.

trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 04:00:39 PM »
The issue is the noise when hitting the seat frame and the chipping it causes.  I guess I could wear ear plugs and carry a bottle of black finger nail polish but I was hoping for an easy/ cheap  fix  on the bike itself.  This whole drive line seems to be snowballing.  The little tube holding chain thingy is wearing the tire while the tire appears to be a Schwalbe reject where the logos are incorrectly stamped.

trplay

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Re: Catbike review
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 04:49:55 PM »
And yet another silly question.  Why cant one simply not use the top idler, put the power side chain on the inside, add a second tube on the return side and take out some links?  If the chain tube is ok for the power side why not the return side too? It will also eliminate the massive lateral twist in the chain line?  Just asking ::)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 07:02:14 PM by trplay »