Author Topic: The Moose is on the loose  (Read 185 times)

plus minus reset

trplay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
The Moose is on the loose
« on: June 27, 2010, 10:44:47 AM »
My short frame Moose-shashi  finally arrived Friday.  I promptly gave it a check ride and then headed out on the Chief Ladiga- Silver Comet Trail (90 mile ride).  I currently have 175 miles on it and should have a review after 500- 1000 miles.

devious56

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 542
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2010, 11:26:17 AM »
How about a quick first impression...................................

Please. :-*
Catrike Speed (CT-1020)
Specialized Tarmac Pro
Motobecane Le Champion Team

"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird.
As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle."

trikebldr

  • "The Doctor"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
  • Exalted High Gander of the Goose Poop Posse
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2010, 12:12:02 PM »
Geeze, Hardy! 175 miles in less than 48 hrs! See! I told ya that you'ze da man! It took me over three months to work up to doing such distances in 2007. Now, I'd be lucky to click off 50 miles/day.

OK, so what color did you get? Any options? Did your shop put it together OK for you?

Congrats on the new bike, and yes, let's hear about how your first ride felt. I like hearing about what you came to discover needs some work, and why.
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

trplay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2010, 01:08:54 PM »
Sure but I am still trying to dial in the fit.  Handle bar height is too high and I am bringing it down slowly.  I am thinking of turning the stem upside down to where it angles down.  I ask ya'll , Are there technical reasons involving steering to make this is a bad idea?  I am acclimating from a trike that doesn't require balance to a recumbent position requiring balance.  A set of training wheels would be nice.  Another thing that has me scratching my head is the head rest.  I am centered on the bike but to get the head rest centered with the rear tire  my head does not align properly.  Is the frame not aligned, my head crooked, or does the cassette distance cause this misalignment?  If the latter, why do all pictures I see have the head rest centered?  The LBS assembled the bike.  I choose black.
The coolest thing about the bike is tight turns at speed with the tilt.  Much different than a trike or DF.  The scariest thing about the bike is heel strike during these tilts.    The chain line is noisy but it may just require tweaking. this fix is high on my list.  First impressions are good, hill climbing so far has exceeded expectations, but I'll know more soon.  Low speed handling is improving very fast.  I would guess this will not be a problem.  Is it fast?  Don't know yet, a very cautious maybe.  Biggest disappointment- Boom had to be cut 3 inches to fit.  I Wish there was a standardized x-seam measurement for the industry.  I have no idea how 39 inches was the determined minimum fit unless they want you to hump the front bar?   I'm out to ride, see ya'll later.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 01:57:00 PM by trplay »

John Rooker

  • Forum Wrench
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2010, 03:30:38 PM »
Just a thought but you might want to look into an adjustable rise stem.  You can then experiment with all kinds of angles until you find just the right one.  Once found, you can put in a stem of that rise/drop and lop off a gram or three.

slim jim

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 03:47:24 PM »
Congratulations and good luck with your new bike.

trplay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 08:50:58 AM »
Thanks, more on the moose at url http://trplay.wordpress.com/

trikebldr

  • "The Doctor"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
  • Exalted High Gander of the Goose Poop Posse
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 09:22:57 AM »
I see you have some of Matt Shumaker's rear braces on your 700. Care to comment on their effectiveness! Most of us have read what TravisP reported from his trials with them, but let's hear another user's impression of them. Also, could we have a larger pic than on your blog so we can see the details of those braces?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 09:25:07 AM by trikebldr »
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

trplay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2010, 01:49:26 PM »
Did you by chance miss this http://trplay.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/frame-flex-and-sway-bars/ or are you looking for more?

trikebldr

  • "The Doctor"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
  • Exalted High Gander of the Goose Poop Posse
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2010, 03:24:44 PM »
Yep! I did miss that! Thanks! It also answers one of my questions.

I see you mounted those bars on top of tape. That's fine on the top tube clamps, but on the lower clamps, which are side-loaded, the tape gives enough side movement to diminish their effectiveness. I've had an idea for a long time, to weld in some small 1/2 aluminum tubes in about the same location as those bars. I would pinch them a little closer together at the top, leaving just enough tire clearance between them, and weld them on top of each chainstay just in front of the dropout. Being welded, and closer together would help triangulate that rear frame section. Paulo claims that the whole frame is triangulated, but that is just wrong! The rear section is actually a trapezoid, which is a form of a parallelogram, and that makes it inherently mushy. Those bars you used go a long way toward solving this, but welding in two very small 1/2 tubes would totally stiffen up the rear frame section. That big 700c wheel is more leverage than the stock frame can handle, but the smaller 406, and even the 451 wheels work well with the design. I am even considering welding in two tubes on Holey Spokes to see if that will make it handle even better. FYI, I am always looking for guinea-pigs...........'er, VOLUNTEERS, to try this tubular mod to the rear of a 700, or even the Expedition. Of course, just like with Holey Spokes, it will definitely void your warantee! However, I give a tail-light guarantee on all of my work. Once I see the tail-lights of the UPS truck after he picks it up, the guarantee is ended!

This past winter I was supposed to get Hipster's Expo frame to add two tubes under the seat, very similar to the 700's extra braces, but he chickened out, I guess. We were hoping to eliminate any chance of shimmy by doing that. I thik both the 700 and Expo can benefit tremendously by adding two small tubes in the rear, though.

Thanks for letting me hijack this thread a bit, but that's just what happens sometimes when interesting issues come along.
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

trplay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 143
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2010, 08:17:35 PM »
Good call on the tape.  The brace actually moved and the bars had a slight bow in them.  I had to loosen them up and then really crank down on them to stop the movement. This is pretty much proof there is some flex.  But!!!!--- Is that really a bad thing?  I am convinced the maneuvering performance between the two is nil.  Simply a little different.  Paulo could make them stiffer but would it make them better?  Maybe  a teensy bit faster climbing when giving absolute max effort but show me a trike at a climbing event.  I have a question-- wouldn't taking the flex out of the frame simply transfer it to the wheel?  Wouldn't that be a bad thing?  One thing beefing up the back does do is it gives a lot of different attachment options.  The bling boys would love this.

trikebldr

  • "The Doctor"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
  • Exalted High Gander of the Goose Poop Posse
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2010, 12:30:46 AM »
You're absolutely right! Flex is not a bad thing depending on what kind of riding you do. But, I will try to explain how this kind of flex can get you hurt. I hope I can get my point over whithout putting you to sleep. There's a lot of background behind it.

Back when radial tires first came out we had a bad rash of accidents because people were mixing radials and bias tires. One of the features of radials was that they gave a much smoother ride. They did this by their sidewalls giving more and allowing the tread to move around and conform to the road better. Bias ply tires had very stiff sidewalls and didn't give much, so they gave rougher rides. When bias plies were used up front, they reacted quickly to steering inputs, but the radials in the rear were slow to follow. When they did finally move, they moved even more than the bias plies up front. This had the effect of feeding in some more steering than was wanted, causing cars to spin out before the driver could react. Radials required the suspension to be altered to take full advantage of their characteristics, and this went against what the bias ply tires needed. Remember the term "radial-tuned" suspension?

If you will remember the old Uniroyal Tiger Paw commercials, they showed a car going around a mountain curve, with the tires' treads still hugging the road, but the car hanging over the cliff, stretching the sidewalls to do so. Imagine if the front tires were bias plies and didn't allow so much side play as those radials. The rear end swinging out farther than the fronts would add some steering to the situation. Bad combination of tire performances!

Now, consider a banzai run down a mountain road on your 700 at maybe 50+mph. You KNOW that rear wheel will be doing some flexing, and so will the frame. The big problem here is knowing just when will the wheel reach it's limit of flex, and when will the frame? Also, which one will reach it's limit first (we really don't care about that!)? At first they both start flexing together, but one will reach it's limit first, and the rate of flexible movement will change abruptly at that point. Also at that point you are leaning pretty hard against the whole works, hoping that things will continue to hold to the road. When you reach the limits of flex of the wheel or the frame, and you are still asking more from them, it will tend to "kick" the rear end out UNEXPECTEDLY, unless you are extremely tuned into your trike from miles of practicing this type of extreme riding. I would call this a sort of whiplash effect. This is just one dangerous aspect of uneven, unpredictable flexing in the rear end alone.

Now, consider the front end and how it reacts to hard cornering at high speeds. With it's smaller 16" wheels and stiffer framing connecting those wheels, the steering input reaction time is almost nil. So, just like when combining bias ply tires up front and radials in back on a car, there is a delay from the time the front wheels turn and when the rear reacts after going through it's flexing motions. Also, by flexing, it allows the rear end to swing out just a bit, but that little bit adds a bit more turn that was unexpected. If you are doing 50mph down that mountain and there is a car in your lane that you have to avoid, just how quickly do you think you can make that wet noodle trike maneuver around the car? Not me! Give me a Speed anyday!

OK, I know that most folks don't ride like that MOST OF THE TIME. But, we do read about that once in a while, and it's nice to know what you can expect in a trike's performance.

Now we get to the bottom line! WAKE UP!!!!!!

If we can eliminate one of the sources of flexing in the rear end, or seriously limit it, we can get closer to knowing what to expect in a hard, fast corner.

Race cars demand as much stiffness in their frames as possible to make their suspensions do their jobs. With a mushy frame, the suspension does the work sometimes and the frame does it the rest of the time, but this is unpredictable. By removing any frame movement from the equation in a race car, the suspension will work as designed and with predictable and tuneable results. When I first designed my latest dune buggy I made the triangulation braces too long, allowing too much flex and twist in the rear end. My coil-shocks couldn't do their job consistently and reliably in hard turns. The frame would flex, letting the coil-shocks "load up", then they would all of a sudden unload and plant my tire into the ground hard, launching the front end into the air! It's this delay reaction that makes things so unexpected and dangerous. Our trikes need this stiffness as much as possible, too, for the best handling.

I don't mean to dismiss your riding skills, but I will ask, did you try your Speed in that same slalom course as the 700, under the same condidtions? I would bet it would have kicked the 700's butt! Try this; put the rear wheel off of Your Speed onto the 700 and see how well the 700 handles a hard, fast turn!!!

I've ridden and followed and watched both the 700 and the Expo, and I know that they both have severe rear end flex that affects their steering response times. I know that they both can be modified to improve this condition a LOT! Running your rear wheel spoke tension up to the upper limits of the rim will help a lot.

One last thought about eliminating the flex is that ANY flex, anywhere in the trike, will rob you of your pedaling efficiency. This is why it will help in climbing hills, especially.

If your riding style and requirements don't SEEM to be impaired by all of this, then ride on! But, if you want the ultimate in handling, this flexing HAS to be removed to make the trike more responsive. Machining chromoly axle tubes to replace the aluminum ones on Holey Spokes made a very drastic difference in steering response. It eliminated a calculated 57% of the normal flex that aluminum axles allow. They also allowed me to set my brakes a bit tighter without incurring any drag in corners.

My motto is, the more weight and flex you can eliminate from your trike, the better it will handle and the more you will like it!

« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 12:37:53 AM by trikebldr »
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"

TrikerTom

  • Back Room
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 89
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2010, 01:00:47 AM »
All that verbage and not one hint to what all that flex is really doing, Bruce...  All that penned up energy is a spring waiting to unload, usually at the wrong time and wrong place.

Funny thing about Catrikes... their inverse rear triangle is actually a weak design from chain stay flex.  The top horizontal bar warps like a noodle with a mere hint of side load.  If you really want to stiffen up that rear triangle, run two tubes up in the conventional manner... from the dropouts to the -middle- of the top tube.  Even the Speed can be improved with this little mod... not that it needs it, just saying.

Personally, I never thought much about the stiffness of the front vs the rear.  Seems some interesting FEA could be done on some of the more competitive trikes.  I'd love to see a Catrike made out of 7005 aluminum.  That 6061-T6 is easy to machine but not the best choice for stiffness.

TrikerTom

  • Back Room
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 89
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 01:06:51 AM »
Damn... I really should read all the post before dribling on about what's already been said  :-\

trikebldr

  • "The Doctor"
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 753
  • Exalted High Gander of the Goose Poop Posse
Re: The Moose is on the loose
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 02:07:49 AM »
Oh...........yeah? (LOL)

Tom, I've been thinking about a Speed made from super thin steel. By rough calculations, I think a stiffer version can be made with about a 4lb weight savings. Might not sound like much for all the work involved, but just go load an extra 3lb on your trike and see what effect it has.

About the Catrike space frame rear end, Paulo has described it as being a triangle, using the wheel as the lower part of two of the legs of the triangle. He showed this in his video from last spring (2009). I completely disagree with that theory (so, what's new!!!), because if you look at the frame (any Catrike model) from the rear with the wheel removed, it is an inverted trapezoid (see pic below). Adding the wheel, with it's axle, simply puts into place a lever for torquing that trapezoid out of shape when side load is applied to the wheel.

And, yes, running two tubes from the dropouts, or as close to them as possible, up, to the center of the top seat tube will finally triangulate that rear end as far as side loading goes. Matt Shumaker's aluminum bars attempted to do just that, but the way that the lower clamp-on mounts were positioned, they have a tendencey to move a bit, eliminating much of their effectiveness. Just a pair very small aluminum tubes (about 1/2" OD) would work fine if welded solidly in place. They can be small because they would be put only in tension and compression, with absolutely no side loading on them. Total additional weight would be about 4oz.

And, yes, too, that even the Speed could benefit a bit from these tubes! Anybody got a Speed that they would like to try this on? I would even "Holeyness" it while I am at it!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 02:16:11 AM by trikebldr »
Bruce

aka tiptoe, ccrider
Bad Boy of the Catrike forum
Everyone's entitled to my opinion!
Speed freak! '03 "Tangerine Dream", '03 "Blue Bomb", '07 "Holey Spokes", '08 "Tony"
MASA Slingshot "Roamin' Chair-ee-ut"
Homebuilts "Godzilla" and "Miss Piggy"